Chairman: The Honourable LOWELL MURRAY, P.C.
Wednesday, November 21, 2001
First meeting on: Supplementary Estimates (A) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2002
From the Treasury Board of Canada:
Richard J. Neville, Deputy Comptroller General, Comptrollership Branch;
David Bickerton, Acting Executive Director, Expenditure Operations and Estimates Directorate, Comptrollership Branch.
The Honourable Lowell Murray, P.C., Chairman
The Honourable Isobel Finnerty, Deputy Chair
and
The Honourable Senators:
Banks, Bolduc, * Carstairs, P.C. (or Robichaud, P.C.), Cools, Doody, Ferretti Barth, Furey, Kinsella, * Lynch-Staunton (or Kinsella), Mahovlich, Stratton, Tunney
OTTAWA, Wednesday, November 21, 2001
The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance met this day at 5:46 p.m. to examine the expenditures set out in the Supplementary Estimates (A) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2002.
Senator Lowell Murray (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Honourable senators, we have before us Supplementary Estimates (A) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2002. You will know, from previous experience, that we should report on these Supplementary Estimates sometime during the first week of December because the supply bill is apt to be presented in the House of Commons on December 4 and may arrive in the Senate as early as December 5. It will probably be debated the next week if all goes according to plan, as it seldom does.
In any case, we will begin our consideration of Supplementary Estimates (A) this evening. We have officials from the Treasury Board. You will recognize Richard J. Neville. He is the Deputy Comptroller General now of the Comptrollership Branch, and with him is Mr. David Bickerton, the Acting Executive Director, Expenditure Operations and Estimates Directorate of the Comptrollership Branch. Mr. Neville has an opening statement to make, copies of which are before honourable senators in both official languages.
[SNIP]
Senator Stratton: This year, we have grown by roughly $6 billion. For my final question, I return to an old question I have asked you before on numerous occasions. When will we quit spending money on guns? What are we at now as a total number? You are now asking for a staggering sum of $158.6 million in new appropriations. The minister responsible at the time - the Minister of Justice, Mr. Rock - sat in that very chair and promised us that it would be no more than $85 million. What are we at now?
Mr. Neville: Do you want the short answer or the long answer?
Senator Stratton: Take your pick.
Mr. Neville: I will give you both, but I will give you the answer you are seeking. We are talking about the Canadian Firearms Program. There is $113.9 million for the Department of Justice and $0.5 million for the National Parole Board are in these Supplementary Estimates (A) to cover the incremental costs related to the implementation and administration of this program. This is all part of the government's "Safe Homes, Safe Streets" policy agenda, which the Department of Justice sponsored with regard to an Act Respecting Firearms and Other Weapons, or the Firearms Act as we know it, which was passed by Parliament in 1995.
There have been a number of challenges to the act. Two of those major implementation challenges were with regard to the licensing of roughly 2.3 million firearm owners and the registration of 7 million firearms within a short time frame. To date, 2 million owners have complied with the licensing requirements. Over 2 million firearms have been registered or are in the process of being registered. As you know, the statutory deadline for firearms registration is January 1, 2003.
Due to difficulties in the early stages of the program, it appeared that the licensing phase of the program might not be attained as planned. In May 2000, the Minister of Justice presented a program to cabinet with the goals of encouraging compliance, increasing processing capability, and improving technical systems efficiency. Cabinet approved this program improvement plan in May 2000.
In spite of the positive results with the program, there were still problems with the licensing phase because of inefficiencies in the operation and accountability structures. This indicated that the registration deadline of January 2003 could not be met with the current information technology and supporting operational processes. Therefore, a major restructuring of the Canadian Firearms Program was presented to cabinet in February 2001.
Cabinet approval was received, based on the understanding that the restructuring would not only be done within the funding profile approved by cabinet, but would also generate savings, mostly due to the redesign of the IT systems and business processes.
To achieve substantial compliance for the statutory deadlines for licensing of firearms owners and registration of firearms, cabinet approved measures, such as the reduction of licensing fees, the waiver of transfer fees and a temporary waiver of registration fees.
These measures contribute an overall cost to the Canadian Firearms Program that is higher than originally predicted. The bulk of the funding - some $90.5 million - that was sought by Justice in these Supplementary Estimates, relates to the cost of implementing this restructuring plan. The remaining $23.4 million is an increase to Justice's grants and contributions to cover the costs incurred for the operation and administration of the Firearms Act, as administered by provincial and territorial agreements in the provinces of British Columbia, Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island. In the remaining provinces and territories, the Department of Justice provides similar services with support from the RCMP. These service costs are included in the operating costs of the Department of Justice, Law and Policy Budget.
Funding of $0.5 million for the National Parole Board is to assist them with the incremental costs associated with the implementation of the Firearms Act. Because of legislation, the National Parole Board deals with longer correctional sentences and additional conditional release reviews.
That brings us to the resource profile. For previous years - if you care to jot this down - before the beginning of this fiscal year, it was $541,262,000. In the Main Estimates - that is, the Main Estimates for this year, 2001-02 - there was a planned additional $34,611,000. The amount in these Supplementary Estimates, as I have already explained, is $113,886,000. The total at this point is $689,760,000.
I trust, Mr. Chairman, that answers the senator's request.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: What is the cost to the government in waiving the fees and in refunding certain fees?
Mr. David Bickerton, Acting Executive Director, Expenditure Operations and Estimates Directorate, Comptrollership Branch, Treasury Board of Canada: I could answer that for you, Senator Lynch-Staunton. At this point in time, the government has collected somewhere in the order of $44 million. The costs for the remission order passed and the refund of the monies will amount to some $3.5 million that will be paid back this year.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: That is just the money being paid back, not the cost of processing?
Mr. Bickerton: No, the costs of processing those orders are included in the operating costs for the organization.
Senator Stratton: The concern I have is that this is $689 million, which is virtually $600 million more than the minister promised it would be. How can someone be that incredibly wrong? I know you can go through the litany of reasons forever, but I guarantee you, because of September 11 you will never get people to register. After that event, there is no way. That is a forecast. I should not say it, but I am making that prediction, because if you think people will register their firearms after September 11, forget it.
Mr. Neville: I will comment on one specific aspect. You said it was $600 million more than originally forecasted. If we were to go back over the minutes of this particular committee while I was a witness at numerous presentations, I believe you would find a thread of continuity because you have asked that question on many occasions, and I have given you the rationale each time for the increase. If you add all those together, I think you would have the total picture.
Senator Stratton: How can it be that wrong from the original? Where will this end? Do you have any forecast? I am sure you do not.
Senator Cools: I have a suggestion to that, Mr. Chairman. Maybe we should bring the minister.
Senator Stratton: He is no longer minister.
[SNIP]