![[Parliamentary Coat-of-Arms]](../pics/crest.gif)
Edited
Hansard • Number 142
Thursday, October 23, 2003
[Hansard – Pages 8702-8703]
* * *
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.
* * *
[English]
Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton—Melville, Canadian Alliance): Madam Speaker, on October 8, I asked the Solicitor General to explain why registering firearms is a higher priority than uncovering DNA evidence that would put real criminals behind bars.
I am here tonight once again because the Solicitor General failed to answer the question. I am also here tonight to provide evidence that refutes the minister's claim that the Liberals are doing a good job at the forensic labs and on gun control.
I did not have to go very far to find this evidence that the Solicitor General either does not know what he is talking about or is being fed a line by the RCMP under his command. It appears in a letter to the editor from retired RCMP Staff Sergeant and forensics expert Mr. Dave Hepworth. He has over 30 years' experience in the RCMP labs, including a stint as the laboratory section head.
On October 18, Mr. Hepworth responded to two letters, one from the Solicitor General published in the Regina Leader-Post on October 11, and one from the RCMP assistant commissioner in charge of the forensic labs.
Mr. Hepworth wrote:
|
|
In an Oct. 17 letter in the Leader-Post, the RCMP assistant commissioner in charge of forensic lab services reported 615 DNA cases in active analysis, 30 cases open and ready to be entered into analysis, and 38 cases unopened. This equates to a total of 683 DNA cases in backlog across Canada. By any measurement, this is a huge backlog that has resulted in average response times of 55 days for urgent cases--those involving suspected serial offenders such as rapists or murderers. |
He went on to say:
|
|
Internally, the RCMP has a corporate diary date of 15 days on urgent cases, but so far this year has only met that diary date in approximately 26 per cent of the cases submitted as urgent. From the standpoint of both a forensic scientist and citizen of Canada I find this unacceptable. |
|
Timely DNA analysis used in conjunction with the national DNA databank is not only capable of solving crime; it has a great potential for preventing crime. |
|
|
In his letter, the solicitor general points out that Regina is to become “our national centre of scientific expertise on firearms,” but does he know the state of that facility? |
|
|
At present, there is approximately one-half the number of firearms specialists there were five years ago. Case backlogs within the firearms discipline have reached the 400 zone and response times have grown from approximately two weeks to four months. Currently there are only three people in training and within the next few years a large percentage of the senior specialists are due to retire. |
|
|
Recently, it was announced that firearms examination services would no longer be provided to provincial wildlife enforcement officers anywhere in Canada. Why? The answer is simple: “insufficient resources”. This means that with hunting season at hand, withdrawal of firearms section services has, in effect, declared open season on poaching. I would simply ask the question, “does this sound like our national centre of scientific expertise on firearms?” It sounds more like a system in crisis! |
That is a very long quote, Madam Speaker, but you get the idea, and this man is an expert.
Just yesterday, in a column that appeared in the Winnipeg Free Press, Mr. Hepworth wrote:
|
|
I urge each and every one of you to ask your MP this simple question. If you had a tool that could prevent crime and needless suffering, save the taxpayers money and solve crimes, why wouldn't you use it? |
|
|
As Canadians, we deserve an answer to that question. After all, our government was willing to spend $1 billion on a gun registry; a system that has yet to provide evidence it has saved a single life. We have the tools to make a difference. We only need the motivation and vision to use them. |
The Solicitor General will not answer our questions. Will he answer Mr. Hepworth's questions? He makes the very good point that we have resources, and we have seen within the last little while $10 million—
(1820)
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): The Parliamentary Secretary to the Solicitor General of Canada.
Mrs. Marlene Jennings (Parliamentary Secretary to the Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Madam Speaker, let me assure the House and all Canadians that the RCMP is fully committed to delivering forensic laboratory services that provide scientific and technical assistance to law enforcement agencies in a timely and efficient manner.
It is standard practice for the RCMP to perform regular reviews of programs to ensure the most effective use of resources in line with its priorities. In 1998, the forensic laboratory services commenced an organizational review of the laboratories to improve and streamline services to better meet the needs of law enforcement partners across Canada.
The member for Yorkton—Melville mentioned the Auditor General's report of 2000. Yes, it made recommendations for a more efficient national laboratory system. As a result of those recommendations and the organizational review, a new service delivery model is now in the final stages of implementation and will be completed in April 2004.
Contrary to what the member for Yorkton—Melville would have Canadians and other members of the House believe, this restructuring will be accomplished without staff layoffs or the closure of laboratory sites.
The recent reports of massive backlogs of DNA casework at the forensic laboratories, which we heard about again today from the member for Yorkton—Melville, are misleading. The backlog of DNA casework is being addressed and significant progress is being made in eliminating this backlog.
Prior to the rationalization, there was a backlog of cases and the average processing time for a DNA case was more than 365 days, as the Auditor General mentioned. This has improved, as the member himself states, to an average of 55 days for urgent cases. I do not know what Canadian would not say that is a heck of an improvement. I do not want to use the other “H” word which also has four letters, but it is a heck of an improvement.
It is standard that all cases be opened within five days of receipt at the laboratory. The RCMP works closely with its policing partners to ensure that their needs are being met and the forensic labs will expedite the processing of samples from high risk cases as warranted. The police have only to ask.
The member himself mentioned that as of September 26, 2003, there were 683 cases in the entire country being worked on. That was the entire so-called DNA backlog. Of those cases, approximately 615 were in analytical processes or were completed and were waiting to be reported. Of the 683 cases, approximately 20 cases were of an urgent nature and had received a priority rating within the forensic laboratory services. So even though the restructuring of our forensic laboratory services is not yet complete, there have been real, significant improvements in the timeliness of processing and reporting of DNA cases.
The RCMP forensic labs turnaround times of 15 days for urgent cases and 30 days for routine cases is an ambitious target and will be realized as a result of the restructuring exercise as it reaches its completion.
I will leave it there. I am sure the member opposite has other comments he wants to make.
Edited
Hansard • Number 142
Thursday, October 23, 2003
[Hansard – Pages 8702-8703]
* * *
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.
* * *
[English]
Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton—Melville, Canadian Alliance): Madam Speaker, on October 8, I asked the Solicitor General to explain why registering firearms is a higher priority than uncovering DNA evidence that would put real criminals behind bars.
I am here tonight once again because the Solicitor General failed to answer the question. I am also here tonight to provide evidence that refutes the minister's claim that the Liberals are doing a good job at the forensic labs and on gun control.
I did not have to go very far to find this evidence that the Solicitor General either does not know what he is talking about or is being fed a line by the RCMP under his command. It appears in a letter to the editor from retired RCMP Staff Sergeant and forensics expert Mr. Dave Hepworth. He has over 30 years' experience in the RCMP labs, including a stint as the laboratory section head.
On October 18, Mr. Hepworth responded to two letters, one from the Solicitor General published in the Regina Leader-Post on October 11, and one from the RCMP assistant commissioner in charge of the forensic labs.
Mr. Hepworth wrote:
|
|
In an Oct. 17 letter in the Leader-Post, the RCMP assistant commissioner in charge of forensic lab services reported 615 DNA cases in active analysis, 30 cases open and ready to be entered into analysis, and 38 cases unopened. This equates to a total of 683 DNA cases in backlog across Canada. By any measurement, this is a huge backlog that has resulted in average response times of 55 days for urgent cases--those involving suspected serial offenders such as rapists or murderers. |
He went on to say:
|
|
Internally, the RCMP has a corporate diary date of 15 days on urgent cases, but so far this year has only met that diary date in approximately 26 per cent of the cases submitted as urgent. From the standpoint of both a forensic scientist and citizen of Canada I find this unacceptable. |
|
Timely DNA analysis used in conjunction with the national DNA databank is not only capable of solving crime; it has a great potential for preventing crime. |
|
|
In his letter, the solicitor general points out that Regina is to become “our national centre of scientific expertise on firearms,” but does he know the state of that facility? |
|
|
At present, there is approximately one-half the number of firearms specialists there were five years ago. Case backlogs within the firearms discipline have reached the 400 zone and response times have grown from approximately two weeks to four months. Currently there are only three people in training and within the next few years a large percentage of the senior specialists are due to retire. |
|
|
Recently, it was announced that firearms examination services would no longer be provided to provincial wildlife enforcement officers anywhere in Canada. Why? The answer is simple: “insufficient resources”. This means that with hunting season at hand, withdrawal of firearms section services has, in effect, declared open season on poaching. I would simply ask the question, “does this sound like our national centre of scientific expertise on firearms?” It sounds more like a system in crisis! |
That is a very long quote, Madam Speaker, but you get the idea, and this man is an expert.
Just yesterday, in a column that appeared in the Winnipeg Free Press, Mr. Hepworth wrote:
|
|
I urge each and every one of you to ask your MP this simple question. If you had a tool that could prevent crime and needless suffering, save the taxpayers money and solve crimes, why wouldn't you use it? |
|
|
As Canadians, we deserve an answer to that question. After all, our government was willing to spend $1 billion on a gun registry; a system that has yet to provide evidence it has saved a single life. We have the tools to make a difference. We only need the motivation and vision to use them. |
The Solicitor General will not answer our questions. Will he answer Mr. Hepworth's questions? He makes the very good point that we have resources, and we have seen within the last little while $10 million—
(1820)
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): The Parliamentary Secretary to the Solicitor General of Canada.
Mrs. Marlene Jennings (Parliamentary Secretary to the Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Madam Speaker, let me assure the House and all Canadians that the RCMP is fully committed to delivering forensic laboratory services that provide scientific and technical assistance to law enforcement agencies in a timely and efficient manner.
It is standard practice for the RCMP to perform regular reviews of programs to ensure the most effective use of resources in line with its priorities. In 1998, the forensic laboratory services commenced an organizational review of the laboratories to improve and streamline services to better meet the needs of law enforcement partners across Canada.
The member for Yorkton—Melville mentioned the Auditor General's report of 2000. Yes, it made recommendations for a more efficient national laboratory system. As a result of those recommendations and the organizational review, a new service delivery model is now in the final stages of implementation and will be completed in April 2004.
Contrary to what the member for Yorkton—Melville would have Canadians and other members of the House believe, this restructuring will be accomplished without staff layoffs or the closure of laboratory sites.
The recent reports of massive backlogs of DNA casework at the forensic laboratories, which we heard about again today from the member for Yorkton—Melville, are misleading. The backlog of DNA casework is being addressed and significant progress is being made in eliminating this backlog.
Prior to the rationalization, there was a backlog of cases and the average processing time for a DNA case was more than 365 days, as the Auditor General mentioned. This has improved, as the member himself states, to an average of 55 days for urgent cases. I do not know what Canadian would not say that is a heck of an improvement. I do not want to use the other “H” word which also has four letters, but it is a heck of an improvement.
It is standard that all cases be opened within five days of receipt at the laboratory. The RCMP works closely with its policing partners to ensure that their needs are being met and the forensic labs will expedite the processing of samples from high risk cases as warranted. The police have only to ask.
The member himself mentioned that as of September 26, 2003, there were 683 cases in the entire country being worked on. That was the entire so-called DNA backlog. Of those cases, approximately 615 were in analytical processes or were completed and were waiting to be reported. Of the 683 cases, approximately 20 cases were of an urgent nature and had received a priority rating within the forensic laboratory services. So even though the restructuring of our forensic laboratory services is not yet complete, there have been real, significant improvements in the timeliness of processing and reporting of DNA cases.
The RCMP forensic labs turnaround times of 15 days for urgent cases and 30 days for routine cases is an ambitious target and will be realized as a result of the restructuring exercise as it reaches its completion.
I will leave it there. I am sure the member opposite has other comments he wants to make.
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz: Madam Speaker, this is a gross miscarriage of justice. DNA analysis prevents crime. It helps solve crime and it puts real criminals in jail.
As all hon. members know, I am familiar with that useless $1 billion gun registry. It does not prevent crime, does not solve crime and completely ignores real criminals. If we were to put just a fraction of that money into the DNA lab we would accomplish something.
I ask those who are listening, do they believe the hon. parliamentary secretary or do they believe an expert who works in Regina and knows exactly what is going on there? He knows what he is talking about. He is an expert in that field.
I would like to conclude by reading a section of an October 17 column by Doug Beazley in the Edmonton Sun. He summed up this whole Liberal mess this way:
|
|
One thing we do know: money can fix this. |
|
|
Hepworth estimates another $5 million a year could beat the backlog down--chickenfeed compared to the $1 billion our federal government has squandered on a gun registry which has yet to save a single life. |
|
|
What a warped sense of priorities. What a bloody waste. |
Mrs. Marlene Jennings: Madam Speaker, I personally do not know the expert the member from Yorkton is talking about.
However before coming into politics I was in the law enforcement milieu. I have a great deal of respect for our police and law enforcement agencies, and what they have to say. Two years of survey results from the police who use the laboratory services show that 92% believe the services are timely and 98% say that the laboratories are responsive to their needs. I take that as solid information.
The other information I have is that the RCMP forensic labs have been recognized and meet international quality assurance standards, including ISO 17025 accreditation.
I hope the member from Yorkton knows what an ISO accreditation is all about.
* * *
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz: Madam Speaker, this is a gross miscarriage of justice. DNA analysis prevents crime. It helps solve crime and it puts real criminals in jail.
As all hon. members know, I am familiar with that useless $1 billion gun registry. It does not prevent crime, does not solve crime and completely ignores real criminals. If we were to put just a fraction of that money into the DNA lab we would accomplish something.
I ask those who are listening, do they believe the hon. parliamentary secretary or do they believe an expert who works in Regina and knows exactly what is going on there? He knows what he is talking about. He is an expert in that field.
I would like to conclude by reading a section of an October 17 column by Doug Beazley in the Edmonton Sun. He summed up this whole Liberal mess this way:
|
|
One thing we do know: money can fix this. |
|
|
Hepworth estimates another $5 million a year could beat the backlog down--chickenfeed compared to the $1 billion our federal government has squandered on a gun registry which has yet to save a single life. |
|
|
What a warped sense of priorities. What a bloody waste. |
Mrs. Marlene Jennings: Madam Speaker, I personally do not know the expert the member from Yorkton is talking about.
However before coming into politics I was in the law enforcement milieu. I have a great deal of respect for our police and law enforcement agencies, and what they have to say. Two years of survey results from the police who use the laboratory services show that 92% believe the services are timely and 98% say that the laboratories are responsive to their needs. I take that as solid information.
The other information I have is that the RCMP forensic labs have been recognized and meet international quality assurance standards, including ISO 17025 accreditation.
I hope the member from Yorkton knows what an ISO accreditation is all about.
* * *