37^th Parliament, 3^rd Session
(February 2, 2004 - )

Edited Hansard • Number 032

Tuesday, March 30, 2004

[Hansard – Pages 1902 – 1903]

Adjournment Proceedings

[Adjournment Debate]

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    A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.

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[English]

Firearms Program

    Mr. Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton—Melville, CPC): Mr. Speaker, on Monday, February 9, 2004, we asked the Prime Minister why he did not let MPs have a free vote on future reductions to expenditures in the firearms program.

    The Prime Minister let the government House leader and Minister responsible for Democratic Reform respond for him. Unfortunately, the Minister responsible for Democratic Reform did not answer the question, so that is why I am back here tonight.

    The Minister responsible for Democratic Reform said, and I quote, “The firearms registry must continue to exist”.

    The minister's response has nothing to do with a free vote on expenditures to the firearms program. I did not ask the Prime Minister for a free vote to scrap the registry, just one on future expenditures for the program.

    Why did the Minister responsible for Democratic Reform duck the question? Are free votes only an option for Liberals when it does not threaten a slush fund or one of their prized billion dollar boondoggles?

    My question was also consistent with promises made by the Prime Minister in the throne speech, one of which I now will quote:

    Last November, a JMCK poll showed support for the gun registry at an all time low of 37.7%. For the first time, support for the registry was below 50% in all provinces. Support for the gun registry was lowest in Alberta, with 15% support. Atlantic Canada had 31% support. Saskatchewan and Manitoba had 33%. British Columbia had 38%, Ontario had 41%, and Quebec had 46% support. In February, an Ipsos-Reid poll produced similar results, with only 43% of Canadians supporting the registry. This newest poll showed support for the elimination of the federal gun registry as highest in British Columbia at 64%, with Saskatchewan and Manitoba also at 64%, Atlantic Canada at 61%, and among Albertans, 57%, Quebeckers, 48%, and Ontarians, 45%.

    With so much public dissatisfaction with the program, it is understandable why the Prime Minister will not let his backbench MPs represent the wishes of their constituents, yet that is what the new Prime Minister, hauling around 10 years' worth of Mr. Chrétien's battered baggage, promised Canadians. Now he is breaking the promise before the election has even been held.

    It is also very odd that the government is so at odds with the views of its own parliamentary secretary for democratic reform, the hon. member for Sarnia--Lambton, who was telling his constituents in January to expect the Prime Minister to allow a free vote when a request for more funding was presented to Parliament in March. His letter stated, and I quote:

    Now the hon. member has to go back, unfortunately, and tell his constituents that no matter what they think, no matter what the majority of Canadians think, the Prime Minister's so-called democratic reforms are dead.

    Instead of allowing Liberal MPs to vote freely on the wishes of their constituents on highly contentious issues and programs, the Prime Minister is breaking faith with his backbench MPs and the majority of their constituents who elected them to office. How can these voters ever trust the Prime Minister or their Liberal MPs to keep their promises?

    Rather than allowing a free vote on future funding for the gun registry, a program that is already $20 million over budget on last year's estimates, the Prime Minister says his review of the firearms program will “remove irritants”. Let me tell the Prime Minister that there are no irritants for criminals in the Firearms Act.

    While two million government-licensed firearms owners are required to report their changes of address within 30 days or face up to two years in jail, there are 131,000 convicted criminals who have been prohibited from owning firearms by the courts and who do not have to report to anybody. Why? Because all the bad guys are protected by the Privacy Act. Why? Because the bad guys were left out of the Firearms Act.

    No wonder so many Canadians want to get rid of this farce of a firearms program. No wonder the Prime Minister does not want to allow a free vote.

 (1820)  

    Hon. Roger Gallaway (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Yorkton--Melville for asking this question. He knows that the two of us are in agreement with respect to the efficacy of the national firearms program.

    His question was posed on February 9 and posed in the framework of a free vote on the national firearms program. It is a very important question because it strikes at the heart of what the role of the House of Commons is in approving funds. What are the estimates? What is the deliberative role of the House?

    The role of the House of Commons in approving funds is the most basic and ancient right of this chamber. It is a right that came to us in section 18 of the British North America Act. It is that bundle of powers in section 18 that came to us from section 9 of the British Bill of Rights and was included in our Constitution. It is the right of the House of Commons and not the other place to approve funds required by the government.

    Second, what are the estimates? The estimates are in a sense the request of departments and ministers for money for operations of departments, of programs and in certain aspects crown corporations. It is the duty of the House of Commons first, through its committees, and second, in this chamber, to examine those requests. The House and its committees have the right to recommend and enforce reductions. We cannot give increases. We can only give reductions to the estimates.

    Finally, what is the deliberative role of the House? The deliberative role of the House is collective. Individual members have the right to represent and they also have the right to deliberate in the sense of hearing evidence before them. Do they think or believe that a particular line item in the estimates is necessary and appropriate? Do they want to support it?

    The question asked by my friend opposite was about a free vote. I am not quite certain any more what a free vote means in this place. A free vote is a more contemporary term. I would suggest that every vote is a free vote, save and except those that are confidence votes.

    I would suggest also that the question asked by the member opposite and in his response is a little premature. He is attacking the Prime Minister for saying that this would not be a free vote when in fact we have not arrived at the estimates process.

    As I understand it, there were no supplementary estimates requests for the national firearms program, but they are in the main estimates. Committees will have to deal with that at some point soon. We will see what happens at that point. To suggest that the Prime Minister is not honouring his stated intention of allowing the House to exercise its deliberative role is, at this point, premature.

    I am not in disagreement with the efficacy of the national firearms program, as the member has characterized it. He and I are in agreement. However, I am not conceding that the Prime Minister has said that this is a confidence matter.

 (1825)  

    Mr. Garry Breitkreuz: Mr. Speaker, this is the first time in 10 years that I have ever received an answer that was not written by a bureaucrat behind the scenes and then read by a parliamentary secretary. I compliment the member for that. I appreciate the answer he has given. It is too bad we do not have more time because we need more decent debate in the House.

    I am also very happy that he acknowledged that the efficacy of the firearms system is not in question at this point. I have studied this thing for eight or nine years now, and I know it is not improving public safety and not helping us. That is why I would like to see a free vote on the funding for this thing because Canadians want to get rid of it. The best and quickest way to get rid of it is to make it dry up by reducing its funding.

    I have to read between the lines in his answer, but I hope there is somewhat of a commitment that we will have more free votes on this because that is what Canadians want.

    Hon. Roger Gallaway: Mr. Speaker, I want to say to my friend opposite that I would note, as he did, that on December 5, 2002, in regard to the $72 million item request from the Department of Justice for the funding of the firearms program--whether it was withdrawn or lost does not matter--clearly on December 5 a reduction of $72 million was not a confidence matter at that time, and it is really difficult to make the argument that today, tomorrow or next week it would be.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): Given that the hon. member for Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore is not present to raise the matter for which adjournment notice had been given, the notice is deemed to be withdrawn.

[Translation]

    The motion to adjourn the House is now deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly, the House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 2 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

    (The House adjourned at 6:27 p.m.)